Younger Users - Is there any point?
Deleted user

Now im probably the last person to be expected to say this kind of thing in Groups. But if we are insisting on keeping younger users on the site, and allowing them to post threads etc, why the hell are Mods deleting and closing threads that are actually Listal topic related?
The main one i refer to is
www.listal.com/groups/viewthread/8780/
Now yes, its untidy, uncoordinated, it turns into a bit of a tif about rap and emo etc. But these are 11-16 year olds, people 18+ are not going to agree with anything a child has to say, nor are we going to take them seriously, see their point, or accept their argument. None of the bands they rate as "best ever" are actually remotely good, but they are children and we are not supposed to enjoy this music as we are meant to be more intellectual!
My main point is that one of these kids went against the expected formula of a narutard and posted a thread about Music, bringing all the youngsters out talking about the bands they enjoy, debating in a very basic way about why so many kids are depressed etc, saying its probably because they are listening to shit music that makes them depressed. They are incapable of adult discussion because they are not adults yet, they are unwelcome in adult threads because of this, and whenever they rear their ugly heads a thread turns to dust before your very eyes because their inability to form a sentence knows no bounds.
With this in mind, i propose the question. Why are we keeping younger users around if we are just going to delete and close the new "improved" threads? Id rather they debate about favorite bands 100 times, than talk about anime and death notes every single day. If it keeps them out of adult music threads, then they should be allowed to at least debate on their own level surely?
If the answers no, then for the love of God just ban them all together! They cant win, and it must be extremely frustrating being told off for being a spastic, then being forbidden to act like a spastic around your own kind on your own level.
The main one i refer to is
www.listal.com/groups/viewthread/8780/
Now yes, its untidy, uncoordinated, it turns into a bit of a tif about rap and emo etc. But these are 11-16 year olds, people 18+ are not going to agree with anything a child has to say, nor are we going to take them seriously, see their point, or accept their argument. None of the bands they rate as "best ever" are actually remotely good, but they are children and we are not supposed to enjoy this music as we are meant to be more intellectual!
My main point is that one of these kids went against the expected formula of a narutard and posted a thread about Music, bringing all the youngsters out talking about the bands they enjoy, debating in a very basic way about why so many kids are depressed etc, saying its probably because they are listening to shit music that makes them depressed. They are incapable of adult discussion because they are not adults yet, they are unwelcome in adult threads because of this, and whenever they rear their ugly heads a thread turns to dust before your very eyes because their inability to form a sentence knows no bounds.
With this in mind, i propose the question. Why are we keeping younger users around if we are just going to delete and close the new "improved" threads? Id rather they debate about favorite bands 100 times, than talk about anime and death notes every single day. If it keeps them out of adult music threads, then they should be allowed to at least debate on their own level surely?
If the answers no, then for the love of God just ban them all together! They cant win, and it must be extremely frustrating being told off for being a spastic, then being forbidden to act like a spastic around your own kind on your own level.
Deleted user

Just to be clear, as someone told me they dont understand it the way i meant it to look.
We all said we want rid of the younger users. But nothing happened about it. Now they post threads and they are deleted, even if they obey the rules. So why the hell haven't they just been banned. Its a stupid waste of time. Either leave them be, or get rid of them. You cant just have this ridiculous middle where all the adult threads are ruined because the children want to debate, and all the child threads are deleted because they aren't wanted here.
We all said we want rid of the younger users. But nothing happened about it. Now they post threads and they are deleted, even if they obey the rules. So why the hell haven't they just been banned. Its a stupid waste of time. Either leave them be, or get rid of them. You cant just have this ridiculous middle where all the adult threads are ruined because the children want to debate, and all the child threads are deleted because they aren't wanted here.

I don't mind them being here, if they have something more than the usual banal nonsense to say. Sadly, they often don't. But it's not always the case, and there are some rather erudite kids around, so I wouldn't really want the little 'uns banned as a matter of principle.
Deleted user

Indeed, so if we are going with the option of not banning them. Why are we closing every thread they interact in? They are incapable of being adult, everything they say is going to be mundane and banal to the rest of us because we are 2-3 or more generations above them. These people are younger than the youngest members of my family, and im probably one of the younger "adult" members on here, though there are obviously younger.
Deleted user

That thread is terrible and I'm glad it was closed. It goes to show that they can't contribute maturely in the groups section and shouldn't have the privilege of posting here. I still recall seeing members that are younger than the (extremely low) age we agreed to ban posting on here, which is a sign that it's not being enforced.
I think the moderators need the ability to ban people from the groups section permanently. It's extremely quiet around here and it's threads like that which are the cause. That particular topic is one I could go on about at length, but what's the point when some 14 year old joker is going to come in and just write 'slipknot' afterwards?
'slipknot'
'slipknot sucks man listen to linkin park'
'fuk u man'
'i agree with [Member X]'
It's pretty much all they're capable of. I'm horrified that they haven't all left yet.
I think the moderators need the ability to ban people from the groups section permanently. It's extremely quiet around here and it's threads like that which are the cause. That particular topic is one I could go on about at length, but what's the point when some 14 year old joker is going to come in and just write 'slipknot' afterwards?
'slipknot'
'slipknot sucks man listen to linkin park'
'fuk u man'
'i agree with [Member X]'
It's pretty much all they're capable of. I'm horrified that they haven't all left yet.
Deleted user

you guys arn't giveing kids much credit i mean sure there are some idiots out there but just ignore them. guys its one thread! it dousnt take much strength to delete the thread or lock it! sure it gets annoying but jeeze just deal with it
its a free running site it.
(by the way my keyboards broken so it skips some letters here and there)
its a free running site it.
(by the way my keyboards broken so it skips some letters here and there)
Deleted user

Get a new keyboard.
I am trying to point out the flaws in what is happening on here. We dont want to put up with the shit coming from kids, not at all. But it is contradictory to force the kids upon us then lock all the threads they use. Logic suggests either they are not welcome so we should get rid, or they are welcome and we should let them roam free. The latter is just not an option, so what are we left with? This state of limbo is just unhealthy because adults dont want to start debates as they know children are going to come in and ruin it, and children try and start debates within the guidelines and fail.
I mean look at Katsuos post, his keyboard skips letters, it also seems to add the letter "i" into words and skip capitals. The U and E buttons are in the wrong place i guess, and it decides to cut out whole words at random.
Are we going to get some kind of resolution here? A simple ban would be quick and easy to implement, but if that is not going to happen, then a code of conduct that is enforced consistently should be put in place at the very least. Its incredible that its so difficult for this forum to run smoothly. I've belonged to countless in my time and i have never come across an infestation of youth like this.
I am trying to point out the flaws in what is happening on here. We dont want to put up with the shit coming from kids, not at all. But it is contradictory to force the kids upon us then lock all the threads they use. Logic suggests either they are not welcome so we should get rid, or they are welcome and we should let them roam free. The latter is just not an option, so what are we left with? This state of limbo is just unhealthy because adults dont want to start debates as they know children are going to come in and ruin it, and children try and start debates within the guidelines and fail.
I mean look at Katsuos post, his keyboard skips letters, it also seems to add the letter "i" into words and skip capitals. The U and E buttons are in the wrong place i guess, and it decides to cut out whole words at random.
Are we going to get some kind of resolution here? A simple ban would be quick and easy to implement, but if that is not going to happen, then a code of conduct that is enforced consistently should be put in place at the very least. Its incredible that its so difficult for this forum to run smoothly. I've belonged to countless in my time and i have never come across an infestation of youth like this.

After looking through page upon page of new members of which the majority fail to contribute anything to the site, are 10-16 years old and use the site as some sort of dating tool I'm tempted to agree.
But really, its a tough issue to face. There are definately some younger members who actually do make the effort to act civil and use the site for what it was made for. Heck, I joined back in 2006 when I was just 16 and I've done alright for myself. Its easy to get frustrated, but its all part of the growing to get used to what is acceptable where online and as I've gone through this process myself in the last decade (though to a lesser extent, to be fair) I can sort of understand whats going on.
Something does need to be done though. There should not be members under a certain age, such as 13/14, and I think that moderation should be continued as it is. BUT I think there needs to be more effort put in to the social side of the site by the members who do want to see it thrive for the better. It may be that a lot of the younger members are just trying to add what they think is entertainment to an otherwise bare setting, and therefore we would need to be posting lighter things ourselves to try and decrease this.
Eh... its a learning curve on both sides and I don't see a clear resolution coming anytime soon.
But really, its a tough issue to face. There are definately some younger members who actually do make the effort to act civil and use the site for what it was made for. Heck, I joined back in 2006 when I was just 16 and I've done alright for myself. Its easy to get frustrated, but its all part of the growing to get used to what is acceptable where online and as I've gone through this process myself in the last decade (though to a lesser extent, to be fair) I can sort of understand whats going on.
Something does need to be done though. There should not be members under a certain age, such as 13/14, and I think that moderation should be continued as it is. BUT I think there needs to be more effort put in to the social side of the site by the members who do want to see it thrive for the better. It may be that a lot of the younger members are just trying to add what they think is entertainment to an otherwise bare setting, and therefore we would need to be posting lighter things ourselves to try and decrease this.
Eh... its a learning curve on both sides and I don't see a clear resolution coming anytime soon.

Obviously RBK has led a very sheltered internet life. Or he wouldn't be phased by these kids and their bunk posts. Either that or everyone complaining is an elitist prick, myself included.
From what I've experienced this can go one of several ways. Either we do what he's proposing and let them have their insipid topics and leave them be. Narutards are excluded because they're a whole other kind of stupid that goes above and beyond the norm. The mods lock topics like the one linked to until atleast the OP can stay on topic, that way he learns how not to be an idiot. You could just tell them all to GTFO!, treating them like the narutards they replaced. or just keep them from being able to make their own topics but still able to post in them. Similar to how we already require a certain number of points before you can edit details on the items at this site.
From what I've experienced this can go one of several ways. Either we do what he's proposing and let them have their insipid topics and leave them be. Narutards are excluded because they're a whole other kind of stupid that goes above and beyond the norm. The mods lock topics like the one linked to until atleast the OP can stay on topic, that way he learns how not to be an idiot. You could just tell them all to GTFO!, treating them like the narutards they replaced. or just keep them from being able to make their own topics but still able to post in them. Similar to how we already require a certain number of points before you can edit details on the items at this site.
Deleted user

..Umm...that's kind of mean. I mean, I am trying my best not to be a pest and I am trying to contribute. So..I may post on some pointless threads like the list of bands one but I'm just trying to state an opinion really. But really, have I bugged you lately?
Deleted user

No offense... but I wish you'd stop saying "we we we" when referring to "getting rid" of younger users. Don't speak for all of us, as I certainly have never desired that.
There are far more threads and posts that they contribute to or participate in that aren't closed or deleted compared to those that are. It's gotten a lot better than it used to be, by far, and I think the moderation has helped quite a bit.
They're trying and I think a good example of that was the thread about religion we had going for a while. I applaud those that realized that being smarter and respectful about their posts was a better way to go. We should encourage that positivity instead of always going "you suck. shut up. we should ban you all." That obviously never worked.
There are far more threads and posts that they contribute to or participate in that aren't closed or deleted compared to those that are. It's gotten a lot better than it used to be, by far, and I think the moderation has helped quite a bit.
They're trying and I think a good example of that was the thread about religion we had going for a while. I applaud those that realized that being smarter and respectful about their posts was a better way to go. We should encourage that positivity instead of always going "you suck. shut up. we should ban you all." That obviously never worked.
Deleted user

i agree with voxy
if some1 told me that on a thread, then i would just stay on
if some1 told me that on a thread, then i would just stay on
Deleted user

Voxy YOU are the one closing the threads which started this post!!! So i cant understand where you are saying you have never desired them to be banned. I am saying i and others want all the young ones gone, but instead we are forced to endure them. But at the same time you and of course the other mods too, have been deleting their threads because they are awful. And they are awful, so im not saying "you are wrong voxy" what i am saying is if you think they are awful and need to be deleted/locked, and we meaning i and others, dont want them posting in our threads, why are they here?! Either let them talk shit, or ban them. Thats what im asking! This limbo just seems contradictory and causes more work for you overall.

Wow, I just lost a lot of respect for this entire site. Grow up, stop being a bunch of snobs, and stop whining.
"Wha Wha Wha, the younger kids don't take our pretentious jargon seriously!"
Who cares! There are much more important things in life to get worked up about. Typing on a message board about how much you hate 10 year olds is just sort of pathetic.
I think I'm done here. Too many power-happy mods, with way too much time on their hands.
"Wha Wha Wha, the younger kids don't take our pretentious jargon seriously!"
Who cares! There are much more important things in life to get worked up about. Typing on a message board about how much you hate 10 year olds is just sort of pathetic.
I think I'm done here. Too many power-happy mods, with way too much time on their hands.

Any mod with half a brain would have locked that thread. It went off topic and it should have been the OP's responsibility to keep it from doing that, but instead even he went off-topic, which is ludicrous. Why would he do that. It was stupid, and if he didn't care about the integrity of his own thread then screw him. He had it coming.
Deleted user

I'm with Lemona here, if a discussion about music turns into a petty playground argument between two kids who are probably sitting on adjacent PCs, we should let it go. Why did we get rid of the Anime forum after all? Let's bring it back and wallow in the shit that makes our listal experience so fantastic!
Or maybe we should actually look to nurture the social aspect of the site. People who are 14 on the whole shouldn't be allowed to contribute in a forum like this. On forums all over the internet I think the minimum age to join is at least 15 these days, so why does it go on here? There is no way you could ask the original thread creators to stay on topic, as they all have immense pride issues and think that anyone older than them is picking on them because they don't understand them. It has happened in countless threads.
Or maybe we should actually look to nurture the social aspect of the site. People who are 14 on the whole shouldn't be allowed to contribute in a forum like this. On forums all over the internet I think the minimum age to join is at least 15 these days, so why does it go on here? There is no way you could ask the original thread creators to stay on topic, as they all have immense pride issues and think that anyone older than them is picking on them because they don't understand them. It has happened in countless threads.
Deleted user

Dude, just because that thread wasn't locked at the beginning, doesn't mean it shouldn't have been. As far as I'm concerned, it fell under the rules of duplicate thread, not necessarily because it became senseless (that was just a bonus). It shouldn't have been started in the first place, so it got locked.
Either way, if another mod disagreed or wished to allow it, it would have been discussed and and unlocked if that's what was decided.
Since when does locking a thread mean I want to ban anyone?! There's no connection there whatsoever, so you shouldn't be jumping to that conclusion. It's about keeping things clean and reminding users to contribute to what's already existant, without spam, and not creating threads that are duplicates of those that are still open and active.
Either way, if another mod disagreed or wished to allow it, it would have been discussed and and unlocked if that's what was decided.
Since when does locking a thread mean I want to ban anyone?! There's no connection there whatsoever, so you shouldn't be jumping to that conclusion. It's about keeping things clean and reminding users to contribute to what's already existant, without spam, and not creating threads that are duplicates of those that are still open and active.

I would have sent that thread down in a hail of arrows Vox, it was mindless and it was duplicate, I dont think anyone is disagreeing with that. The kids are here just in case one day one of them does say something of consequence...in the mean time the 'hi' and '^^' posts will be destroyed.
They're only going to learn how to respond well by reading the responses of others. They are improving, Rome wasnt built in a day.
I agree with you to some extent Lemona, I always let a bit of off topicness go, digression is a natural part of discussion...when it starts to go off on one on one arguements or 'nobody likes you at school' posts, I cut it down.
Its not that big a deal really, the groups section had to have a bush fire...maybe its time for it to regrow now. (Somebody loved Fern Gully as a child)
They're only going to learn how to respond well by reading the responses of others. They are improving, Rome wasnt built in a day.
I agree with you to some extent Lemona, I always let a bit of off topicness go, digression is a natural part of discussion...when it starts to go off on one on one arguements or 'nobody likes you at school' posts, I cut it down.
Its not that big a deal really, the groups section had to have a bush fire...maybe its time for it to regrow now. (Somebody loved Fern Gully as a child)

Lol Lucky me, I turned 15 yesterday lol
I really feel that the thread was useless...
Favorite Band?
Linkin Park
Slipknot
Green Day
That has little to no contribution value to the site, well... I suppose somebody could search Green Day and find that thread, or another band, but it doesn't add any... ah what's the word... quality to the site, people need to rack their brains for an intelligent answer, if we want a good quality site, everyone needs to rack their brains to give a better answer, a one word answer doesn't improve the quality at all, but, if someone went to the thread and saw that everyone post the band(or bands) that were their favorites and told WHY they were their favorites(Such as liking the vocals, or liking how they made the song "blahdy blahdy blah" or liking their overall style) even just ONE sentence for a thread like that improves the quality of the site overall. Now, granted, I highly doubtEVERY kid on this site can really go IN DEPTH on why they like a band, but if MOST can, then we are fine.
And it's not just for bands, it should be for everything.
And, if every post was really good and then there was maybe, a 3 post off topic spot here and there, it would still be fine, the viewer would most likely be impressed that a bunch of teenagers can actually give good answers to things, and in turn, join the site.
Also, if I'm correct, this site works as a word by word search engine sort of, what I mean is, if you have a Favorite band thread, and you have someone say Green Day, Welcome to Paradise, American Idiot and other Green Day songs in their post, then people searching for those songs, or reviews on those songs, will in turn, POSSIBLY find this site. It might not pick up too fast, but it would after a while.
The problem is getting kids to actually answer with intelligent answers, while some won't have a problem at all, others will be difficult(sort of like when we were trying to stop the anime section from killing themselves, except without the riot at the end by the anime killers)
I really feel that the thread was useless...
Favorite Band?
Linkin Park
Slipknot
Green Day
That has little to no contribution value to the site, well... I suppose somebody could search Green Day and find that thread, or another band, but it doesn't add any... ah what's the word... quality to the site, people need to rack their brains for an intelligent answer, if we want a good quality site, everyone needs to rack their brains to give a better answer, a one word answer doesn't improve the quality at all, but, if someone went to the thread and saw that everyone post the band(or bands) that were their favorites and told WHY they were their favorites(Such as liking the vocals, or liking how they made the song "blahdy blahdy blah" or liking their overall style) even just ONE sentence for a thread like that improves the quality of the site overall. Now, granted, I highly doubtEVERY kid on this site can really go IN DEPTH on why they like a band, but if MOST can, then we are fine.
And it's not just for bands, it should be for everything.
And, if every post was really good and then there was maybe, a 3 post off topic spot here and there, it would still be fine, the viewer would most likely be impressed that a bunch of teenagers can actually give good answers to things, and in turn, join the site.
Also, if I'm correct, this site works as a word by word search engine sort of, what I mean is, if you have a Favorite band thread, and you have someone say Green Day, Welcome to Paradise, American Idiot and other Green Day songs in their post, then people searching for those songs, or reviews on those songs, will in turn, POSSIBLY find this site. It might not pick up too fast, but it would after a while.
The problem is getting kids to actually answer with intelligent answers, while some won't have a problem at all, others will be difficult(sort of like when we were trying to stop the anime section from killing themselves, except without the riot at the end by the anime killers)
Deleted user

i hated the anime groups they gave a bad name for kids, and anime. (mabe if there wasn't so much idiots makeing it seem so childish you guys might have actually liked naruto and bleach but oh well) there are some smart kids out there but kids when they get overly excited you know things happen.
So there are going to be bad threads out there anyways...
So there are going to be bad threads out there anyways...
Deleted user

Christ, it seems nobody is actually understanding what i mean, and i dont think its your fault guys, i must just be wording it in an awful way.
That thread was shit, but its the only way they know how to communicate!! With shit posts, shit threads and off topic spam! I am saying if nobody wants that kind of shit on here, then why aren't we banning the kids? Not one of them has improved, it has just stayed bad.
If nobody really cares about it, then why is it being moderated? I dont care if they start threads and go off of their own topics exactly, but i do care when i want to start a discussion and they enter the fray.
The way it stands now, "every ones allowed to post" but if your topics are awful, or stray, or turn into Spam they get deleted. I am saying clearly not everyone is allowed to post then because these people are incapable of decent threads, that stay on topic and are comprehensible.
That thread was shit, but its the only way they know how to communicate!! With shit posts, shit threads and off topic spam! I am saying if nobody wants that kind of shit on here, then why aren't we banning the kids? Not one of them has improved, it has just stayed bad.
If nobody really cares about it, then why is it being moderated? I dont care if they start threads and go off of their own topics exactly, but i do care when i want to start a discussion and they enter the fray.
The way it stands now, "every ones allowed to post" but if your topics are awful, or stray, or turn into Spam they get deleted. I am saying clearly not everyone is allowed to post then because these people are incapable of decent threads, that stay on topic and are comprehensible.
Deleted user

T.H.F.C
is not about younger users ive found its about people who put anime/manga/anything around those types i put my face on here posted a thread got immediat help and like they were nice about so i think its more on the idea of getting rid of these rp kids ^_^
is not about younger users ive found its about people who put anime/manga/anything around those types i put my face on here posted a thread got immediat help and like they were nice about so i think its more on the idea of getting rid of these rp kids ^_^
Deleted user

Yeah T.H.F.C was right I sorta got into a flame war on it and I'm sorry about that but he was generalizing and stereotyping on a mass scale.
That aside it was a duplicate and should have been deleted straight away.It was a shambles from the start.
That aside it was a duplicate and should have been deleted straight away.It was a shambles from the start.

The way it stands now, "every ones allowed to post" but if your topics are awful, or stray, or turn into Spam they get deleted. I am saying clearly not everyone is allowed to post then because these people are incapable of decent threads, that stay on topic and are comprehensible.how is this a bad thing. At any good sized board with traffic is going to generate lots of crap and moderators need to be hard or else the place will go to shit. THe biggest board I'm a regular at has one rule that stays constant no matter what section you're in. Lurk and learn. That is keep you're mouth shut until you learn the rules or get banned. It ain't just kids that that applies to, and they're not the only ones who get banned. It ain't an age thing, its an anti-idiot policy, and it works.
Deleted user

But Listal doesn't have a "lurk and learn" policy, and if we did these guys would be well and truly banned. The other forums i frequent also have a Code of Conduct which is abode by without any problems what so ever. These aren't small forums either, 5000+ members posting/lurking at any one time. Thats not "gigantic" by any measure, but Listal groups must have barely 30 people lurking/posting at any point? And yet there is no real order.
The quality of these groups section seems to wave up and down each week depending on wether or not the decent members can be bothered to sit through the shower of shit the idiots throw out. The religion thread quoted above, that went to pieces towards the end! People coming in and moaning about the topic, saying it was a pointless debate etc.
The clear answer is a proper banning policy. I've never been this negative and *whiny* on a forum before, because iv never had to! These other places are run properly, and i would like Listals forum to be too, because it has potential to be a cool place to talk once people have been vetted.
The quality of these groups section seems to wave up and down each week depending on wether or not the decent members can be bothered to sit through the shower of shit the idiots throw out. The religion thread quoted above, that went to pieces towards the end! People coming in and moaning about the topic, saying it was a pointless debate etc.
The clear answer is a proper banning policy. I've never been this negative and *whiny* on a forum before, because iv never had to! These other places are run properly, and i would like Listals forum to be too, because it has potential to be a cool place to talk once people have been vetted.

dude, then stop calling out a good decision made by a mod. Part of what makes a good forum is trusting the decisions made by them.
Deleted user

What on earth are you talking about? I was using it as an example where she was right to delete it, but it proved that these kids are incapable of talking properly. I said (and im saying it for what? The billionth time this thread?!?!) If this forum is for "everyone" and "everyone can post" then we cant moan when people post shit, even though its ruining the forum. I proposed we ban offenders, to save the monotony of constant deletions/closures etc.
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"still wondering were you guys get all this time to review and rate so many items it makes no sence how long do you guys stay on the computer in one day?"
If that's the way you feel, why are you here, exactly? Listing, rating and reviewing media is what this site is primarily all about.
If that's the way you feel, why are you here, exactly? Listing, rating and reviewing media is what this site is primarily all about.
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Deleted user

Nathaniel... kindly cease and desist with the useless junk replies. Either contribute to the ongoing conversation properly, or stay out of the thread. We'll be happy to help by blocking you if you refuse to do so.
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Deleted user

As for the topic at hand... I wonder what the world would be like if we could all just "ban" anyone we didn't get along with or who didn't do things our way.
Deleted user

@Katsuo: Well try being on planet earth an extra ten years. You kinda get time to fit things in.

"guys guys im just amazed on how much items you guys got i haven't even watch over 1,000 movies yet. I didn't mean to affend anyone"
I haven't got *any* items, at the moment :-(
I haven't got *any* items, at the moment :-(
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Deleted user

*sporks Gem* Stop encouraging them... don't make me ban you! :P
This message has been deleted. Reason: Ironic deletion of my own rule breaking
Deleted user

Katsuo, the only reason im complaining is because sometimes this place is a shambles. I think it could do with some vast improvements, and instead of the attitude "Slowly wins the race" there should be wholesale changes being made straight away. I talk to some of the Mods on here, and i know my feelings are not unique to me, other users feel the same. I am not "Mr Negative" all of the time, i just speak up when the shit is hitting the fan and nobody else seems to want to do anything about it.