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What is the criteria for being promoted to the front page?

CD Smiles 11 years, 7 months ago at Sep 13 4:44 -
Something led me to believe you had to get 7 votes on your list to make the front page. But I've seen lists of mine get more than 7 votes and not make front page, and recently post-update I saw a list with only five votes make front page. So I'm curious if there's new criteria or am I just misinformed?
Maggie 11 years, 7 months ago at Sep 13 6:12 -
For book lists it's 7 or more, and other lists it's 10 or more. But they don't get promoted every time they get a vote. It just means that after 10 votes, there is a chance of them getting promoted. I don't know the exact probability of it, but it's a hit or miss kind of thing.
Onion Jack 11 years, 7 months ago at Sep 13 8:30 -
The new system for promotions seems too random, unless it's not functioning correctly. I have no clue what's actually going on since the update. I know you've tried to explain it Maggie, but you don't seem too sure either.

Perhaps Tom could enlighten us.
johanlefourbe 11 years, 7 months ago at Sep 14 6:19 -
Yeah, it is something that used to bother me a lot but after discussing about it so many times, I don't care that much about it anymore. The point is that, when I started with Listal, you needed only 3 votes, no matter which category, to get promoted. I thought it was great because even if someone had no clue how to make a really nice list, they still could get promoted which is always a nice motivation. But then, Tom decided to regularly increase the number of votes, to modify the rules according to the categories and since then it has always been rather confusing... Furthermore, because of this, we often end up with some lists which stay there more than 12 hours which is totally unnecessary.

For example, one of my more recent (movie) lists had just reached 12 votes a couple of days ago and it didn't get promoted. How many more votes will it take? 15?!? That's ridiculous and really discouraging for the new users.
Anautix 11 years, 7 months ago at Sep 14 8:22 -
I think 3 votes are really too few to get promoted. There are so many lists with only 3 votes. I guess a newcomer will be more motivated if it's not that easy. In your case I would say that 12 votes are enough to be promoted. But I would prefer a promotion of lists not only depending on votes (people with many friends get 10+ votes easily) but also on the quality or uniqueness, good ideas that are quite new... It would be interesting to know what the real criteria are.
Onion Jack 11 years, 7 months ago at Sep 14 8:49 -
@johanlefourbe

I'm not sure that there is a set amount of votes anymore. I've been watching lists pop on to the front page and then checking to see if that is the number required... and failing. It really is a confuzzlement. If a random element has been included then it is unfair on those who miss out on the promotions. It is my opinion that all lists should play by the same rules, unless created by somebody excluded from the points system, those lists should also be excluded from promotion.

Edit: There is currently a list with 6 votes on the front page, work that one out.

Edit edit: Some categories have 'recently voted lists', whilst others have 'recently promoted lists'. The front page also has 'recently voted lists'. Is there a difference?
Anautix 11 years, 7 months ago at Sep 14 9:40 -
@Onion Jack

I think "recently voted" and "recently promoted" means the same, but with two different names.
Onion Jack 11 years, 7 months ago at Sep 14 9:49 -
@Anautix

I'm of the same mind, but surely they should read the same. A little thing, but a thing all the same.
Deleted user
Deleted 11 years, 7 months ago at Sep 14 12:41 -
I always presumed that you only needed three or four votes to get promoted to the front page. I mean Listal is a relatively small community isn't it? Sometimes the front page hardly changes at all which I'm guessing is either a bug in the system or the likely hood that nobody is really voting. It seems to me Listal has a lot of casual users who maybe create a profile stick around for a while and then never use the site again and a tiny minority of hardcore users.There was a reason it became pretty obvious when certain people used fake profiles to vote for themselves, it's because getting a vast amount of votes is actually pretty rare. Iv'e been using the site for over two years now (Yeah I had an old account; Orpheus.). I agree with JohanleFourbe as regards to not changing the way lists are promoted. After all we have had this argument a while back you know, and this site really isn't/shouldn't be a competition.
Onion Jack 11 years, 7 months ago at Sep 14 14:41 -
It should just be set and left alone... every ten votes means promotion.

Simple, clear and consistent.

Listal isn't a game or a competition, anyone who thinks otherwise needs to be introduced to Pacman, but it is nice to see your lists being noticed.
Anautix 11 years, 7 months ago at Sep 14 14:57 -
"Listal isn't a game or a competition"

The whole life is a competition and for some people also a game ;-)

Honestly I don't care, if my lists will be promoted. I came here because I was looking for a site with more and better possibilities of creating lists than with IMDB.

It would be interesting to know how many users listal has and how many of them are active users. I thought it's a quite big community (of course far smaller than facebook & co).
Deleted user
Deleted 11 years, 7 months ago at Sep 14 15:00 -
...Well one things to be sure, Onion Jack is going to give his opinion that's to be sure. His opinion on absolutely EVERY topic on the forum. Got a problem? Just call Onion Jack, hell he's better than all Moderator's. Hell why do we even bother with Mod's we've got Onion Jack. You know for somebody who's been using the site for a few months you've certainly made your presence felt and I'll tell you know I'm not the only person you're beginning to tick off.
Onion Jack 11 years, 7 months ago at Sep 14 15:08 -
Oh dear, it looks like I've rattled somebody's cage. Since I don't have the same desire for an argument as you do (this forum simply isn't the place), I'll simply say... have a jolly nice day.

Edit (made after the next comment): Strangely, I was agreeing with the last point made in your post, oh well... never mind. Next...
Deleted user
Deleted 11 years, 7 months ago at Sep 14 15:17 -
You've been rattling a few cages for a while now. You're just so utterly full of yourself you weren't aware of it. Nice day to you too.
Onion Jack 11 years, 7 months ago at Sep 14 15:42 -
@Anautix

Perhaps I worded my post badly, since it seems to have caused such a reaction from elsewhere. I was agreeing with the comment that it shouldn't be seen as a game/competition, not that some people don't see it as a game/competion. I just don't get how this can be seen as anything more as making lists because you are:

a) interested in a subject.
b) interested in learning about a subject.

It is nice then to see your effort recognised in the form of votes/promotion.

Hopefully that clears up any loose ends.

Anyway, I'll get back to list research, I don't get into trouble there ;)
Deleted user
Deleted 11 years, 7 months ago at Sep 14 16:31 -
@Onion Jack

If was the sheer arrogance to say:

"It should just be set and left alone... every ten votes means promotion.
Simple, clear and consistent." that got under my skin so much. Trust me, if ten votes were the requisite the front page would be stagnant for some time. Thus only a few lists would dominate the front page, which would undermine the rest of the community and alienate newcomers to the site. Most lists build up over a period of months (sometimes years)

@Anautix

The fact that it takes so few votes to make the front page gives you the impression that the community (or more to the point the amount of users using the site at one time) is much bigger than it really is. Trust me if it took ten votes to be promoted you would definitely notice the difference.

I totally agree with Onion Jack that the site should be about:

a) interest in a subject.
b) interest in learning about a subject.

And the reasons the site shouldn't be a competition is because it becomes about:
a) The lowest common denominator (I.E Endless lists of Porn babes etc, something the sites recently been trying to eradicate).
b) Users creating fake accounts to vote for themselves (something that has plagued the site)
Onion Jack 11 years, 7 months ago at Sep 14 16:46 -
It used to be 12 to get the first promotion, so 10 would actually lower the requirement. There was then a second promotion at around 17 or 18 (feel free to tell me the exact number). "Simple, clear and consistent" was not intended to be arrogant, it was simply my way of saying that everybody would understand where they stood if the landmarks votes were easy to remember and left unchanged once set.

I do agree that lists build up over time, but I think ten is a good number. Perhaps there could be something put in place for newcomers, but I'm not sure about how practical that would be, for instance the first three lists on a new account might only need five votes before being promoted. Would this make multiple accounts more desirable? I'm not too sure about that.

I'm glad that you do see that I was agreeing with the other point that you made, and that I have now been offered the opportunity to reply to your concerns properly.

I can be quite direct, and perhaps sometimes my comments don't read as intended.

I don't wish to replace the moderators, or even to be a moderator. I'm just a user with opinions (perhaps a few too many).

Anyway... hopefully this can be the end of any issues.
johanlefourbe 11 years, 7 months ago at Sep 14 18:01 -
(Orpheus, is it really you? Are you back in town? :) )

Honestly, Onion Jack is not one of the bad guys. At least, I don't think so.

Back to the main topic, maybe my argument to go to 3 votes to get promoted wasn't that good but I agree with Onion Jack that the whole randomness of this system is rather annoying. However, pretty much like Anautix, I don't care much if my lists are promoted or not so I don't really care about the damned thing but if you are really into getting your stuff noticed (why not? That's one of the main points of this website), this system is just really frustrating.
Deleted user
Deleted 11 years, 7 months ago at Sep 14 21:45 -
Hey Johanlefourbe yeah it's me lol:)

Yeah I overreacted and I apologize to Onion Jack. But I still stand by my points I made that 10 votes to make the front page would be absurd. Iv'e been off and on the site for over two years and I can't remember it ever being the case that ten votes promoted a list to the front. You've been here way longer than that so you'd know, was that ever the case?

I guess what i'm trying to say is if y'all don't care whether your lists are promoted to the front page why make the point in the first place? Surely the way it is it's actually a lot fairer regarding a larger percentage of the community getting to the front page, whether they newcomer, casual user or hardcore Listal nerd. Sure some of those lists may be of a poor quality or whatever but that's a matter of taste after all and ones things to be sure what with the speedy fluctuation of the front page constantly changing means it would soon be replaced. My problem is that very good point you made: It would discourage newcomers and casual users and it would encourage competition thus detracting from simple enjoyment of the site in which to share and explore interests in film, video games, fashion, art etc. That's what Listal means to me and the push for it be too much of a competition (as is what happened when the whole fake accounts fiasco happened) is something that would undermine the site. Just My opinion, but there you go:)
Onion Jack 11 years, 7 months ago at Sep 14 22:00 -
Apology accepted :)
Maggie 11 years, 7 months ago at Sep 15 1:45 -
If promotion came for every ten votes, the front page would be drowning in the lists made by those morons who go around spamming people's profiles and vote for each other without actually looking at the lists. When it's by random chance, it's more fair. Especially since not all lists get tons of notice until they get that chance to be on the front page, and because some lists don't deserve the attention being consistently promoted would get.
Moderator
brazilfashion 11 years, 7 months ago at Sep 15 2:06 -
You're entitled to your own opinion, OJ. But in the end it's Tom's site. I can't speak for Tom but the benefits of the current system are the ambiguity of votes needed for a specific list to get promoted. It shouldn't be about trying to get a certain amount of votes to get onto the front page.

Personally, I would prefer that it was even more random, to give other users lists (who don't spam and ask/expect all their friends to vote for them) a chance.
Moderator
The O.P. 11 years, 7 months ago at Sep 15 6:52 -
Besides, the more lists are promoted, the less time each list shows up on page 1. Everyone promoted equals nobody is promoted!
Whatever the promotion system, I don't really care.
johanlefourbe 11 years, 7 months ago at Sep 15 6:55 -
Ok, the last points developped were actually fair enough (it is so nice to have a civilized conversation without it turning it out in a mud feast. It wasn't like this 6 months ago, do you remember? ;) )

Someone was mentionning that the promotion system is now random which is actually quite intriguing. Is it the case? Can someone tell us a little bit more about this?
johanlefourbe 11 years, 7 months ago at Sep 15 7:11 -
Still, you won't convince me that it is a good thing that a list (randomly picked or not) stays 24 hours on the front page (in 30 minutes, it will be actually the case).
Onion Jack 11 years, 7 months ago at Sep 15 11:32 -
After a quick search, I found a post from seven months ago where Tom stated that he planned to make promotions more complex, so I guess that closes this issue.

I suppose like everything else, we will get used to it.
johanlefourbe 11 years, 7 months ago at Sep 15 17:21 -
@Onion Jack, I agree but also disagree with your last statement. Indeed, after a while we will get used to this system, that's true, but the fact that the lists remain way too long on the front page (right now, the oldest one has been there for 25 hours...) won't work. I mean, at some point, I will probably stop checking the front page. I mean, what's the point if it always remain the same?
Onion Jack 11 years, 7 months ago at Sep 15 17:51 -
To be honest, I won't be bothering with it much now anyway, it just doesn't serve the purpose that it used to. That said, I do understand the points made by others here and accept that changes had to be made to the system. I do think that excluding troublesome users from promotion may have dealt with the problem better (but only after some sort of effort to divert the user away from the offending behaviour), but like has already been said... this is Tom's site, and he does as he sees best for his site, and clearly he has been planning this solution for some time. I simply have to respect that.
johanlefourbe 11 years, 7 months ago at Sep 15 20:59 -
For some very wise words, my friend ;)
Deleted user
Deleted 11 years, 7 months ago at Sep 16 6:39 -
Do item counts make a difference for promotion? Yesterday or day before that, there was a promoted list with 5 items (www.listal.com/list/cities-i-want-to-visit). And I recall seeing a promoted one with 3 items about a month ago. It didn't seem rational for that to be promoted (unless the subject of the list itself lends to a very narrow set of items in the 1st place).
Xanadon't 11 years, 7 months ago at Sep 16 8:27 -
1 million listal points to the first user to successfully crack the new "complex" promotion system code and define the algorithms at work.

I think something that feels more randomized may act as a mild deterrent against users spamming peoples' profiles for votes. Of course with a point and rank system in place, I don't suppose that this will ever be fully eradicated.

Also, I think it's all a bit relative when it comes to whether or not 24 hours on the front page is a terribly long time for a list to remain featured. A year ago when I was logging into the site once, twice, or three times daily (and was generally more active and in touch with the site and other users) I'd have probably agreed. But these days I'll often go an entire day or two or sometimes six without jumping on the site. So even a full day's promotion might go completely unnoticed.

So sure, a very active user might grow weary of seeing the front page remain static for a spell. But then again, the very active users are also likely the ones that are prone to dig deeper into the site and 'click' their way toward uncharted territories, discovering new lists and content along the way. In this sense, I think it makes sense for a (hopefully deserving) list to stay up on the promotion page for 6, 12, or even 24 hours at a time so that it has a better shot of being noticed by the broader listal community.

Moderator
The O.P. 11 years, 7 months ago at Sep 16 12:04 -
I doubt that the average user checks Listal's home page more than once a day.