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Points System - Yea or Nay?

Moderator
Rank : 210
Posted : 2 years, 6 months ago at Jun 11 1:18 -
The points system is in place to reward people for their contributions, though occasionally people abuse it. My question to the community is: do you like it, or would you go to the extreme of saying it needs to be given more minimal focus (perhaps even a phasing out altogether) on the site?

Let's not mention specific names of users who have pushed the line, but feel free to state your view honestly and with a good Homeric simile to boot.

* * * * *

I think it's an interesting issue. It's worth talking about other ways of doing it: for example, inputting a different ranking system like on other forums. You earn points and gain ranks (Newbie to something to Veteran, but with a couple more positions and maybe better names for them) without being put in an exact place.

Also, placing less emphasis on the points could be tried out for a short time, and we'll see if the right people are still motivated to add to the site. Keeping in mind, of course, that any way we do this would be a rather drastic change and would practically take a site redesign; thus, it wouldn't happen overnight and it might be a big job for our admin.

So go ahead - first come, first serve! But seriously, one post will be drawn at random. (/joke)
Moderator
Rank : 113
Posted : 2 years, 6 months ago at Jun 11 2:22 -
I really like the award system at iCheck you have an award shelf that you slowly add your prizes to for watching so many films. No one there really cares or looks at whatever you have on your 'shelf'.

Ranking on iCheck is rather general and you receive titles after getting so many points (that you have to dig pretty far into the site to find your actual point break down). So, I think titles would be nice... ListNewbie, ListMaster, ImageGuru, Art Critic (for those who take the time to vote on images).

Ah, but on iCheck checking every movie sort of defeats the point the whole site. Tho, you now get points for creating list. Yep... iCheck is moving into the 'custom list market'.

So, perhaps rewarding awards after reaching certain mile stones and titles after accumulating so many milestones.

But I think the first thing that could be done is that points are something only you, the moderators and your friends can see. Sorry, I don't really want the public at large to know my ranking and there have been a few times where (my points + trying to be nice = snotty comment) which sort puts me off wanting to help random strangers.

But ya, the point thing is silly and rather detrimental to the site in a few ways. Came across of list of "My Favorite Films of All time" and the person clearly stated "I haven't seen that many films" yet... looking at what they have rated... they had pretty much gave a rating to every single film ever made... WTF? Why? Ah, and thank you for messing up the rating systems :P

I expect the hype-zombies to rate new releases 5 stars before the movie has been released but... that usually takes care of its self over time and is an issue with every site from IMDb to iCheck.

So, while I just woke up from a nap and I'm half awake. I'll continue rating... I wouldn't mind if Listal started having a prime-account feature where some aspects are only available to paying members. This would help pay for getting Tom a little coding help but like "Image Collections". I would LOVE to be able to sort all my personal images into folders. A prime Account log in page... where the "Contact updates" and "Recently promoted lists" are switched. I'm finding what the 'public at large' promotes less and less interesting as time goes by... actually for the most part I don't even look at the "Recently Promoted Lists".
Moderator
Rank : 113
Posted : 2 years, 6 months ago at Jun 11 2:28 -
Oh, and the ability to "Archive" a list. For those of us who have way too many lists. It would be nice to have a 'storage area' for lists you never plan on updating and it wouldn't show in your little pull-down menu when trying to add a new film to a list. You could pull things out of the Archive if you wanted to edit them but it would make life easier for the hardcore list-makers. ~ That would be a nice "Prime Feature".

Edit: Yep, got off the point but yes... I would like to see actual Rank/Points disappear or take another form. I have frequently massed deleted, lists and reviews simply to stay out of the ranks of the top 100. Which... might seem rather mean spirited but I have to do what keeps me happy and relatively sane.
Rank : 103
Posted : 2 years, 6 months ago at Jun 11 7:36 -
Personally, I think the points system was probably good for the infant Listal site in order to motivate folks to contribute. But now, I think it's hurting the site more than helping. People are just spamming duplicate pictures, rating items that aren't out yet or people and things that they don't have any knowledge on, and/or making alternate accounts to vote for lists in order to boost their point count...Among other spam-like stuff that I'm sure I'm missing.

I think getting rid of the point system will make most contributions to the site better. People will be adding to the site in order to help build a database, not build their own egos. At the very least, the reason for someone to spam the site to boost a point count would be taken away. Take away points and I'm sure the number of people contributing will be reduced...But I think it would be an issue of quality over quantity.

Besides, the Listal rank really doesn't mean anything. You don't get anything special for being number one. It's just bragging rights. So, taking the rankings away wouldn't have any effect on the site aside from a few folks not feeling motivated enough to contribute anymore.

Long story short, I say nay in regards to keeping the points system around.
Moderator
Rank : 90
Posted : 2 years, 6 months ago at Jun 11 7:51 -
To be honest, I'm not thinking about it all. I guess I wouldn't even notice it if it were taken away.
Moderator
Rank : 7
Posted : 2 years, 6 months ago at Jun 12 1:10 -
I say Nay for all the reasons described above. Ape pretty much nailed it with his post.


However, I think lists and images and everything should still have votes just to show the merit of the list, review, image, video ect on its own. Votes just don't have to result in a user getting points.

I don't care about my ranking or how many points I have but it does mean something to me when someone votes for my lists or even images because it is nice to know that my effort and contributes are appreciated by other users.
Rank : 280
Posted : 2 years, 6 months ago at Jun 12 1:32 -
^ Agree 100000% with what she said.
Rank : 103
Posted : 2 years, 6 months ago at Jun 12 6:39 -
I agree with brazilfashion as well. I think votes and promotions to the front page should definitely stay. It does feel rather rewarding to know that enough people liked your work for it to be shared with everyone on the site via the front page.
Moderator
Rank : 113
Posted : 2 years, 6 months ago at Jun 12 7:30 -
I agree with ape, brazilfashion, lotr23 and then back to agreeing with ape.

Keep votes, there still might be some 'iffy behavior' with voting but since it would serve no point/rank system that might see a sharp decline. Gah, I just tried to think of what Facebook would be like with a point/ranking system *shudder*
Moderator
Rank : 210
Posted : 2 years, 6 months ago at Jun 13 12:21 -
Voting and getting promoted is essential, and should never be taken away. I also think being able to view members by most reviews and the like should stay, as it's nice to see who else is putting out content.

The only thing I would be afraid of is people searching for other members and viewing the forums, not seeing the rank, deciding that the site doesn't value contributions, and not making the most out of it. However, Tom moving the member search to a remote area of the forums and keeping promoted content on the front page should help, as should being able to search based on other yet not thought of contribution-based criteria (perhaps by reviews and lists of certain platforms).

I think, if anything, there should be an even stronger emphasis on the contribution-based aspect of the site, but it doesn't have to be as much about climbing over other users, stepping on their faces, and cackling as they cry pathetically. There should still be a focus on relating to other users though, with recommendations based on similar users' likes already on the agenda and hopefully other features to encourage interaction and make it rewarding.

This message has been deleted.
Rank : 15
Posted : 2 years, 6 months ago at Jun 14 5:00 -
I don't want to break the mood but it is exactly the whole point/ranking thing that got me addicted to this website. To me, it is a big game of creativity and wits, you have to come out with a great concept, a nice layout, then the first votes come in, the promotions and then .... the points! What a rush... It is like crack for me and Facebook is nothing compared to this. Of course, there is the temptation to cheat around and at the end of the day, there are many messed up things going on our beloved website...

Maybe replacing the points with awards, it could be cool. Why not?
Rank : 80
Posted : 2 years, 6 months ago at Jun 14 5:52 -
What if the points system was just simplified? Now that Listal has been around awhile, I see no sense in awarding points for adding any content that's not a review or a list. That goes for rating, editing, and (especially) tagging items too. If users want to do those things they can, but since none of it requires much effort there shouldn't be points given in exchange for them.

I like the way the points are set up for reviews now, but would love to see an option added to flag them if they're obviously not reviews (like the tracklists PvtCaboose91 mentioned) or if they're obviously not someone's original work (copy/pastes from other sites).

Anyway, I like getting points, but if they were done away with I'd still keep making the lists I want to make. It's kinda neat to have a higher rank on the site, but as has been said it really doesn't mean much (especially when others can abuse the system & rank higher than those of us who put time & effort into our contributions).
Rank : 145
Posted : 2 years, 6 months ago at Jun 14 6:57 -
Wait, points are awarded for tagging items? I'm off to put on a pot of coffee and learn how to tag stuff. It's gonna be an all-nighter!!! Top 100 here I come- Watch out bitches!

Ha, but seriously there are some great thoughts going on around here being shared by everyone involved. Not sure I have anything new to add. Which is just as well because I never really liked you very much, PK :P
VIP
Rank : 265
Posted : 2 years, 6 months ago at Jun 14 7:07 -
I prefer a point-less website, as I find the points pointless (see what I did there? :P).
I do find the promoted lists a useful place to find new content, but that doesn't need the points system to work.

My suggestions:
1) A system of awarding "badges" will probably have the same effect of engaging people to contribute and the badges are so much prettier :) Even if you do keep the points, Foursquare is a great example of how to use badges and points on the same site. The points are only for the last week, but the badges stay forever.
2) An official Top 10 section would be nice to have, instead of the proliferation of individual Top 10 voting lists we have all over the place. If anyone has used the Top 10 app on Spotify, that's a great example.

Rank : 145
Posted : 2 years, 6 months ago at Jun 14 7:21 -
Ok, so I've thought a little more about this and come to a couple conclusions. The first being that I want to be PK's friend again. (Mostly because I forgot for a second there that you're a moderator, and thus I live in fear of you.)

When I first joined the site I found gaining points to be pretty attractive and it was fun watching my Rank grow, especially since it grew fairly rapidly early on. But for most of the past year now, I haven't really given any thought to Rank and Points whatsoever. "Rank" could disappear and I personally wouldn't mind one iota.

But the reason for this has a lot to do with the fact that I've become satisfied with what the site's purposes are for me personally. It's a cool place that allows me to interact with like-minded people and fellow movie enthusiasts. I've gotten to know a number of members and a select number of members here very well. Awesome. Also the site provides me a place to document my thoughts on films as I watch them- so I can keep better track of my thoughts about what I watch and also have a place to share them with my friends and anyone who happens to be interested. I guess what I'm saying is that for me listal isn't really a cyber-playground in the sense that I'm not a very technologically orientated guy- there's plenty of stuff the site offers that I don't take advantage of/know how to do. For me it's a social site that happens to contain a whole slew of interesting and varying opinions and ideas about film (and of course other stuff too) and allows me to connect with people and develop friendships. So while there are lots of great ideas floating around on how to modify the point system, and what would be the best fit, I guess I'm saying that whatever modifications are made (unless they're incredibly drastic and ill-conceived) it won't make too much difference to me.

So no, nothing earth-shattering and revelatory, but I figured I'd offer my rather lame input anyhow since PK was nice enough to personally ask for it.

Now, all this said, I think what jaytoast's input:
Ranking on iCheck is rather general and you receive titles after getting so many points (that you have to dig pretty far into the site to find your actual point break down). So, I think titles would be nice... ListNewbie, ListMaster, ImageGuru, Art Critic (for those who take the time to vote on images).

sounds really cool.

Ooo, maybe you could use "belt colors" like in karate? I think it would be kind of awesome to be a Green-Belt List author, aspiring for a Black Belt.
Moderator
Rank : 210
Posted : 2 years, 6 months ago at Jun 14 21:38 -
Thanks for chiming in, guys! Especially those of you I personally motivated to do so with threat of paper-cutting.
The site's slogan is "List the stuff you love". It's not "The more stuff you list, the more points you get".

Exactly. Listal contributions should be labors of love, not impersonal stuff the creator churns out to get points.
I don't want to break the mood but it is exactly the whole point/ranking thing that got me addicted to this website. To me, it is a big game of creativity and wits, you have to come out with a great concept, a nice layout, then the first votes come in, the promotions and then .... the points! What a rush... It is like crack for me and Facebook is nothing compared to this. Of course, there is the temptation to cheat around and at the end of the day, there are many messed up things going on our beloved website...

Maybe replacing the points with awards, it could be cool. Why not?

I guess it can be addicting. We could still have voting, promotion, and rewarding of contributions. Or if we follow the giraffe's model, we could cut back on or do away with points for different things. I think an Awards system would work in conjunction with these things, though Tom would have to figure out what he could give us as he only owns so many islands. =P Seriously, though, we might be able to think of site perks.
What if the points system was just simplified? Now that Listal has been around awhile, I see no sense in awarding points for adding any content that's not a review or a list. That goes for rating, editing, and (especially) tagging items too. If users want to do those things they can, but since none of it requires much effort there shouldn't be points given in exchange for them.

That's a good idea. Rating should be for personal reference or recommendation to others and tagging should be a helpful or creative means of telling others about an item or a means of finding out about similar things by way of searching a tag.
I like the way the points are set up for reviews now, but would love to see an option added to flag them if they're obviously not reviews (like the tracklists PvtCaboose91 mentioned) or if they're obviously not someone's original work (copy/pastes from other sites).

This would make sense, rather than deleting everything. I don't mind having *credited* copy/pasted reviews or track listings for albums that don't have tracks listed yet, but they shouldn't appear before actual reviews on an item's feed and probably shouldn't be awarded the same amount of points as an original review.
2) An official Top 10 section would be nice to have, instead of the proliferation of individual Top 10 voting lists we have all over the place. If anyone has used the Top 10 app on Spotify, that's a great example.

Perhaps the voting could promote lists to a hidden promoted list, and a tribunal could pick from them - along with lists they know about by other means - to create the latest Top 10 or other number list?
Ok, so I've thought a little more about this and come to a couple conclusions. The first being that I want to be PK's friend again. (Mostly because I forgot for a second there that you're a moderator, and thus I live in fear of you.)

TEH PAPERCUTZ!!1
So while there are lots of great ideas floating around on how to modify the point system, and what would be the best fit, I guess I'm saying that whatever modifications are made (unless they're incredibly drastic and ill-conceived) it won't make too much difference to me.

A wise man once said "Either you are with us, or you are with the Plano, TX installation of Bennigans." I'm glad to hear an altering opinion. =]
sounds really cool.

Ooo, maybe you could use "belt colors" like in karate? I think it would be kind of awesome to be a Green-Belt List author, aspiring for a Black Belt.

Now that I think about it, there are a ton of creative possibilities for titles. We could even use a business model: Fall-Down Guy whom Higher-Ups Let Go to Jail for Them, Still Mostly Innocent Employee Who's Starting to be Influenced by the Company, Aspiring Back-Stabber, then Soulless Kingpin. There's a lot to think about.
VIP
Rank : 265
Posted : 2 years, 6 months ago at Jun 15 2:22 -
Perhaps the voting could promote lists to a hidden promoted list, and a tribunal could pick from them - along with lists they know about by other means - to create the latest Top 10 or other number list?

The Top 10 App basically does what we do now, 10 pts for 1, 9 pts for 2 and so on... except everyone makes their own lists and the app combines them into an uber Top 10, which is dynamic. SO not too far off from what you just proposed.
Rank : 467
Posted : 2 years, 6 months ago at Jun 17 11:03 -
I agree with johanlefourbe. The points ranking system is part of what keeps me coming back. If there was a way to weed out the cheats, and stop in their tracks, i'd be all for it.

Someone mentioned a medals/milestone system rather than the system we have know. I think that could work.